#alice creeler

[aemiron-main]

alice creel isn’t karen wheeler- but she might be somebody else: an analysis of alice creel and connie frazier and jefferson airplane’s white rabbit

So, I think there’s a solid chance that “Connie Frazier,” might be Alice Creel.

Alice was 15 in 1959, and therefore was born in 1944, which would make her 39 in 1983.

Connie’s age isn’t confirmed anywhere, unfortunately, but the actress who plays her, Catherine Dyer, was 58 as of 2016, when S1 was filmed. Admittedly, this is a fairly large gap between what Alice’s age should be vs what Catherine Dyer’s age is, however, Mike Wheeler is also supposed to be fourteen, so I think that the ages of the actors vs the characters in ST has a bit of wiggle room.

I’m not just basing this off of looks, though- the name “Alice,” literally plays in a scene where Connie’s face is on screen/it’s focused on Connie.

The lyric “go ask Alice,” plays during this scene, and even cuts to Connie RIGHT as the name “Alice,” is sung, having focused on Benny for the “go ask,” part of the line.

And prior to this scene at the door, we also have the “call Alice,” lyric that plays, which, right as it plays Benny says “Whoever it is, I’ll tell them to go away real quick.” The fact that the name “Alice,” plays right after Benny talks about going to see who is at the door is suspicious, almost like it’s Alice at the door.

As well, the full line for the “call alice,” part goes “call alice- when she was just small.” And Alice Creel was small/15 years old the first/last time we saw her (1959) but now is not small anymore/is grown up.

That’s two instances of Connie being referred to while the name “Alice,” plays in the show. The first time, it literally cuts to Connie’s face as the name “Alice,” is sung, and the second time, Benny talks about seeing who is at the door (Connie) while we hear Connie knocking and the name “Alice,” is sung once again.

It’s also interesting that Benny literally called Connie/called social services and Connie/the lab seem to have been listening in on the call and interfered. And if Connie is Alice, then Benny literally called Alice.

Also, it almost seems like Connie’s has her mind wiped- she’s extremely focused on her mission, seems to have little personality or interests outside of it, and kills Benny in cold blood with basically zero hesitation.

And look at how Connie lays on the ground, bleeding from her eyes, compared to how Alice laid on the ground, supposedly bleeding from her eyes.

It’s also interesting to me that they chose to revisit Connie’s death in S4, the same season where we’re introduced to Alice Creel for the first time. Sullivan hands Owens a picture of Connie’s death when talking about El- almost like ST production is giving us a subtle reminder of what Connie’s death looked like and how eerily similar it was to Alice’s “death.”

I’m not 100% sure if Connie is Alice yet, but the parallels are definitely interesting, and if Brenner picked up Henry from the Creel house that night (which he did), then I don’t think it’s a stretch for him to have grabbed Alice too. What if Henry is part of what happens when MKultra brainwashing fails, but Connie/Alice is what happens when it succeeds? Not the powers part of it persay but simply the *brainwashing* part and destruction and rebuilding of the mind that was involved in the real mkultra. (The two main steps for mind control were thought to be to wipe then mind snd then rebuild it, which likely would’ve been what happened to Alice). And even though Alice seems dead at the Creel house, there’s so much weirdness with all of those scenes and the position of her body changes throughout various retellings and she seems like her eyes may not even be bleeding in some of them- she may also have regenerative healing like Henry (and likely like Virginia) which would explain her survival.

And then we also get this scene- look at the curtains. We have the orange curtain behind Connie and the orange curtain behind Virginia, and we have both Connie and Virginia wearing orange plaid and they both have similar hairstyles, and the blanket behind Connie is the same sort of orange and white colours as Virginia’s shirt and the framing with the OTS shot of Victor in Virginia’s screenshot vs the OTS shot of Scott in Connie’s screenshot- if Connie is Alice, then it would make sense to parallel grown-up Alice to her mother (Virginia).

It’s also interesting to me that they chose scott for this scene- scott, who would’ve been at school at the same time as Henry and likely would’ve met Alice at some point, but wouldn’t recognize her anymore, especially because she’s supposed to be dead.

[strawberrybyers]

“karen wheeler is a part of the creel family” truthers how are we feeling about them putting a sequence of clips of jamie, the upside down, then cara in one go 👀

[madwheelerz]

Okay, so more on what happened with Will. Will is dressed like Marty McFly in the very first episode right?

Marty traveled to the past and had to get back to the future before he accidentally erased himself from existence, and the upside-down seems to be able to suck out your time at least up until the point where Will got taken, as evident by Eddie's poster.

So Lonnie kills Will in timeline 1 -> Mike tries to reset the timeline but isn't able to fully eradicate the timeline due to him not being powerful enough partially because of age -> Mike ends up damaging his mind and losing the memories of timeline 1 and releasing beings/monsters/locations/plots from his subconscious since the energy release weakened the barrier between his mind and the real world

Hence why Mike just makes things up, and they happen. Lucas suggests that El escaped from a mental facility, the same facility Victor Creel is in later. El happens to be right on time to save Mike at the Quarry, despite her being nowhere in sight prior, and when Flayed! Billy tries to end him the first time.

All those Mike & El parental parallels, but also they've been paralleled to twins and the writers account suggesting that El might be Mike's long lost sister from the upside-down.

I think the Creels are something of a mirror/reflection of the Wheelers, hence all the Creeler parallels. Like the way that Henry views himself and his family may shed light on how Mike views himself and his family.

An attic vs. a basement, the only son, a mother who just knows (all those conversations that Karen has with Mike, like she's trying to feel him out or like she knows something), "that's my friend, Mike", constant stalker shots of Mike, Henry for some reason constantly sparing the Wheelers - both Karen and Nancy, the choice to have Nancy as a messenger.

Alice might be meant to represent both of Mike's sisters as like a shared role (Holly's appearance + Nancy's age).

[wibble-wobbegong]

The Canonical Five

Case #1: Mary Ann/Polly Nichols

Date of Death: August 31st 1888

Physical Description: 5’2”, brown eyes, high cheekbones, graying dark brown hair

Family Life

Mary Ann was born to Edward Walker and Caroline Walker, being one of three children. Her brothers were named Edward Walker and Frederick Joseph Walker.

Mary Ann was married to William Nichols at age 18 and they had five children together; Edward (1866), Percy (1868), Alice (1870), Eliza (1877), and Henry (1879). The couple eventually separated due to Mary Ann’s alcoholism and prostitution alongside the suspected cheating William underwent with the nurse who helped deliver Henry.

Death

Being the first victim, Mary Ann was the least practiced. She had no organs removed, something that later becomes an MO of JTR, but she was found with a white handkerchief, a comb, and a piece of a mirror. She was missing five teeth, alongside other slash injuries. She was described as lying lengthwise along the street with her left hand touching a gate.

Mary Ann is particularly interesting in her connections to the lore of the show because, clearly, she’s being represented by Virginia seeing as she has all three of the children; Alice, Edward, and Henry. Seeing as Alice is a child in this woman’s life, it rules out the possibility of her being Mother Alice. She also doesn’t align with what we know Mother Virginia to look like, seeing as she has brown eyes and hair, unlike our blonde-haired blue-eyed devil.

What I think this could suggest is that there is an original timeline in which a different version of Mother Virginia had all three children. To me, this is ringing several Creeler bells. The original description of Mary Ann closely resembles both Joyce and Karen in S1 (though Karen is taller than 5’2”). It could apply to either of them, except Joyce only has two children as far as we know. None of her children hold semblance to the seen Creel children outside of the comparisons made between Henward and Will which are intended to explain Vecna’s fascination and crave for him rather than familial implications.

Now, the Wheeler family doesn’t perfectly match the Creel family. Instead of two sons, Karen has two daughters. Nancy has brown hair rather than blonde. Holly is blonde and blue-eyed, but Henry was a boy. Mike fits the least, but at the same time he would be filling the role of Edward as the outcast of the family in combination with his other isolating traits.

Karen potentially being Daughter Virginia from Edward’s timeline would make the Wheelers a direct parallel to this original timeline Creel family. I could drawl on similarities between Alice and Nancy, Edward and Mike, and Holly and Henry (which I might do another post for), but this is all to say that I believe there was an original timeline before Edward was banished. This delves into speculation, but I find it very intriguing that Mary Ann was found with a piece of mirror in her pocket at her death and Edward’s banishment in the show is surrounded by mirror shards. Almost like parallels. Or something.

I have a whole post here discussing why I am almost completely certain that Edward was Jack the Ripper. This first kill is incredibly important as a kick starter, but I’ll admit I’m still unsure of who removed Edward and how it was done. I’m also trying to keep these short, so it’s not as detailed as usual, sorry!!

[aemiron-main]

The First Shadow, Timelines, Alice Creel, and Swapping Family Members: New Thoughts On Alice Creel vs Karen Wheeler Regarding the Edward Timeline 

(Karen Wheeler Might Be Alice, Just Not In The Way Anyone (Including Me) Thought She Was)

So, to start this off on an insane foot (bear with me).

I think that this is Alice Creel:

But before you go “oh, Em, you’re just rehashing an old Alice theory, everyone knows this theory”- I DON’T think that this is Alice Creel:

I a.) don’t think that they’re the same person and b.) I don’t think that the second girl is actually Alice Creel.

Most Alice is Karen theories claim that these two are the same person, and that Karen uses contact lenses or something to have brown eyes, something that I disagreed with.

And I thought that Karen was actually Daughter Virginia until today, and that that little blonde girl was Alice, and that they’re two separate people. I talked about it posts such as this post. Now, I'm not letting go of that theory entirely, I think there's still a chance that it might be true, especially since some of the TFS stuff is still being revealed/might be changed regarding contacts etc etc.

But now, I offer a new idea: that little blonde girl is not Alice Creel.

She’s also probably not Karen Wheeler either (at least, not the brown-eyed karen that we see in the show. I'm still undecided about the blue-eyed karen childress in all of this)

I think that little blonde girl is Virginia Creel/Daughter Virginia, and that Karen Wheeler IS Alice Creel, but is NOT that little blonde girl that we see. I don't think we've ever seen Henry's sister, Alice Creel, as a child on-screen.

Now, setting that aside, let’s start at the beginning of what I think is going on here, and we’ll circle back to that, and I'll explain why I think this is the case, and why I also believe that the brown-eyed "Virginia" Creel that we see is actually Mother Alice.

SECTION 1: Did Victor Get Peter'd? What The Hell Happened to Victor Creel? 

So, I'm wondering if one of these is true: A.) The Victor in Pennhurst is actually the Edward Timeline Victor, who has been brought into the Henry timeline.

BUT, he's had his memories messed with by the lab and believes himself to be the Henry Timeline Victor (the father of Henry and Alice and the husband of Virginia) but is actually the father of Edward and Virginia and the husband of Alice)/. They likely left the visual part of his memories alone, but messed with the name part of his brain OR B.) The Victor in Pennhurst is the Henry Timeline Victor (the father of Henry and Alice and the husband of Virginia), and never crossed timelines, BUT he's had his memories messed with by the lab.

He doesn't believe himself to be the Edward Timeline Victor the way that the previous Edward Timeline Victor in option A.) believes himself to be the Henry Timeline Victor, BUT he DOES believe that the people he's seeing in his memories are his family when they're not.

This would be because they messed with the visual part of his memories, but left the names alone. And therefore, his actual daughter IS named "Alice," but the little girl in the visuals/his memories is NOT Alice Creel, and instead, is Edward Timeline Daughter Virginia Creel.

Either way, I think his memories got messed with, and either way, both options lead to that little blonde girl not being Alice Creel. Let's go through option A.) first.

This would be the option where Victor got "Peter'd"- aka, being pulled into another timeline like Peter Bishop was in Fringe (and Fringe is confirmed inspo for ST, the ST writers have tweeted about watching it). You can also see this post for more proof of that. In Fringe, it's the son (Peter), who is taken to another timeline. But, if ST wanted to subvert this/flip it, as they often do with their sources of inspiration, then it would make sense for the father (Victor) to be the one who is taken to another timeline. We'll talk about Fringe more later, though.

And you might be thinking "didn't Victor straight up say that Henry was his boy, Alice was his daughter, and then said "Virginia" in reference to his wife? Doesn't that imply that he's Henry Timeline Victor?

And YES, he did, but, like I said earlier, if the names were swapped around for him/if he believes that he's Henry Timeline Victor, then it tracks perfectly for him to believe that those are the names of his children and the name of his wife, even if they're not. His memories would still be the same visually, he would still be picturing His Kids in his mind, he would just have their names wrong/believe them to be someone they're not (much like Hopper talking about the "wrong kid," back in S1).

And I'm also wondering if The First Shadow is going to be the first time that we see Henry Creel and his family, rather than Edward Creel and his family.

Why am I wondering if TFS is going to be the first time that we actually see Henry Creel's family/see Henry Timeline Victor? Well, it's partially because, like I talked about here, Mike Jibson, who's going to be playing Victor in The First Shadow, resembles Owens WAY more than he resembles Kevin L Johnson/the guy who plays Young Victor.

So, I'm wondering if this guy/Pennhurst Victor:

IS this guy and IS Edward's father:

But is NOT this guy/is not actually Henry Creel's father:

But that This Guy is Henry's father, and possibly a young Owens/if we're seeing Henry's Creel's Father In The 50s for the first time & if Kevin L Johnson solely played Edward's father:

I know that previously, I said that Owens might be Edward Timeline Victor, but NOW, I'm wondering if he's Henry Timeline Victor, an idea I'll come back to soon in this section when I talk about WHY Victor might have been pulled from the Edward Timeline to the Henry Timeline.

And regarding the idea of us not having seen Henry's family before, there's also the matter of the wallpaper. I talked about the colour-changing wallpaper in the Creel house and how it connects to multiple timelines in this post, however, I want to talk about it again, because I want to talk about what we DON'T see in this regard, rather than what we DO see. And what we DON'T see is the red wallpaper in the family room in any of the 1950s flashbacks. This is relevant because as I talked about in that post, the red wallpaper seems to be from the Creel house in the Henry timeline, whereas the green wallpaper seems to be from the Creel house in the Edward timeline- and the green wallpaper is the only wallpaper that we see in that room in any of the 1950s flashbacks. This would mean that we're only seeing the Edward timeline when we're seeing 1950s flashbacks. However, it's also hard to tell/hard to say Definitively if we're only seeing the Edward timeline because in many of the flashback scenes, the door to that room is shut/simple not visible, so we COULD be seeing shots of the red wallpaper Creel house/of the Henry timeline, but we would have no idea because we can't see that room. BUT, if we ARE seeing solely the Edward timeline in those 50s, scenes, then it would track with the little blonde girl NOT being Daughter Alice/Alice Creel, because Daughter Alice doesn't exist in the Edward timeline- but Daughter Virginia does, and therefore, that little blonde girl is actually Virginia Creel. It would also mean that the mother "Virginia" Creel is actually Alice Creel/Mother Alice.

This would explain why Virginia Creel in TFS has blue eyes whereas Victor's "virginia" in his pennhurst sequence has brown eyes but is never referred to as Virginia by name in the 50s (it only happens when Victor says her name in pennhurst but that tracks with him having his brain messed with)- because she's not Virginia.

It would also explain why in the Dear Billy script, it has Virginia and Alice's names swapped in that moving-in scene: because that's exactly what it would have been for Edward Timeline Victor. He would have been standing beside his wife, Alice, which is what's birefly in the script (the line where they put thier arm around eachother):

And now here's the big question: WHY? WHY bring Edward Timeline Victor into Henry's timeline???

WELL! I mentioned the idea of Owens being Henry Timeline Victor. And I think that's exactly WHY the lab might pull Edward Timeline Victor into the Henry Timeline. I've talked repeatedly about how it's extremely likely that a.) the lab was involved with the Creel murders/present on the night of the murders but also b.) the lab was setting up the murders/planning things right from the day that the Creels stepped foot into Hawkins.

And we know that the Creel Murders in Edward's timeline happened a few days before the Creel Murders in Henry's timeline. So, if the lab was basically using Edward's timeline as a test run for pulling off the Creel murders in Henry's timeline, but if Henry Timeline Victor is Owens, then they need a fall guy to take the blame for the murders.

Because let's say that Jibson and Owens are the same guy, and that that Jibson-Owens is Henry's father from the Henry timeline. 

But if Owens is the father, and if the lab needs to pull off the Creel murders in henry's timeline too (after all, they happened in edward's timeline FIRST/a few days BEFORE they happened in henry's timeline it's lowkey giving inter-timeline lab fuckery and a trial run), then who takes the blame???? After all, in Edward's timeline, Victor got arrested and then was dumped on the side of the road and taken in for questioning and sentenced, but we don't hear anything about what happens to Edward Timeline victor after his sentencing. He could have killed himself in prison, he could have escaped etc etc. 

He could have dyed his hair pink with smuggled dye for all we know, point is, we don't have a damn clue at ALL what happened to edward timeline victor after his trial/after being sentenced to pennhurst. I'm not saying that he actually killed himself or escaped, but i AM saying that if the lab was to grab edward-timeline victor and bring him over to henry's timeline, we, as the audience, would have no idea based on the papers because the papers don't tell us what happened to him. We hear nothing whatsoever about Edward Timeline victor creeel after his sentence.

The weekly watcher is different because it gives us an INTERVIEW with pennhurst victor while he's in pennhurst, after his trial, indicating that in the Henry timeline, there is, in fact, a Victor in prison in pennhurst. But the Edward timeline doesn't have this, the indianapolis gazette article solely focuses on the day of Victor’s trial, we don't get anything about any interviews later on.

TLDRif jibson and owens are the same guy/are henry's father, and Kevin is Pennhurst Victor but from the Edward timeline, brought over into the Henry timeline. And would still track with what I said about how we dont see that red wallpaper room in the 50s/if that red wallpaper indicates henry timeline & we arent seeing it during the 50s, then that implies that we arent seeing the Henry timeline in the 50s. 

But why would Owens want to kill his own family? Well, he didn't. Going back to Fringe, James talked about the fact that the lab in Fringe staged a murder to try and activate Olivia's powers as a child- and while this may have also been done in HNL with El in 1979/during NINA, I'm also wondering if that's what happened with Henward and if the lab was trying to activate their powers.

But if they're staging the murders, and if they want things to be believable, they want the public to think that the Creels are dead, then they need somebody to take the blame- and it can't be Owens/Henry Timeline Victor, because he's researching/part of the project. So, who do you grab? You grab his almost-clone, his alternate timeline self to take the blame. This would, weirdly enough, also make Owens the father of Karen Wheeler, as if Owens if Henry Timeline Victor. It would also mean that Alice Creel didn't die (but Daughter Virginia did/that blue eyed girl we saw bleeding on the ground) did die, and that Virginia Creel (the blue eyed TFS lady) didn't die either. Which, she may have gone on to become Connie Frazier, but that's another matter entirely. However, I'm not fully convinced that Owens is any form of alternate timeline Victor, so just keep in mind that I'm not saying any of this as if it's going to be firm fact. A solid chunk of this is just me swishing thoughts around and speculating. And with that bit of doubt regarding option A in mind:

Let's now go through option B.) Options B does not involve Owens being an alternate timeline Victor, nor does it involve Victor crossing timelines at all.

As mentioned earlier, Option B involves Victor remembering the names of his family, but the visuals being messed with/the names being associated with the wrong people.

How would those visuals be transferred? Well, from the other Victor's memories. And going back to Fringe briefly, it may seem like a stretch for Victor to have somebody else's memories, but keeping in mind that Fringe is confirmed inspiration for ST, in Fringe, one person's memories are transferred into another person's mind REPEATEDLY, often against their will, and often without them even realizing it. Olivia, for example, has memories that belong to Fauxlivia (her alternate timeline counterpart's nickname) implanted into her brain by a Brenner-Owens paralleled scientist to try and convince her that she's actually Fauxlivia (and it WORKS for awhile/absolutely had the potential to work permanently). It's abslutely within the realm of possibility for the lab to have done this to Victor.

And continuing on with Fringe, Victor is EXTREMELY paralleled to Walter Bishop (like, the shot of Victor turning around in Pennhurst is taken basically frame for frame of Walter turning around in St Claire's mental institution), and Walter Bishop had part of his brain removed, and lost a bunch of memories, especially memories of of his now-dead son's childhood as a result.

And it's also worth noting that Walter is Peter's father- however, Walter's original Peter died, and Walter pulled the Peter from another timeline into his timeline instead. But the memories that Walter lost of his son's childhood were of his original Peter's childhood- he didn't lose ALL of those memories, but he lost quite a few. Which has me staring at Henry vs Edward and Pennhurst Victor losing his memories of Henry & having memories of Edward instead, not even realizing that they're memories of Edward.

Long story short, either way, whether it's Option A or Option B, or something else entirely, it's EXTREMELY EXTREMELY likely that Victor had his memories messed with, because like I talked about in this post, the Indianapolis Gazette talks about Victor not remembering anything from the night of the murders, and being picked up on the side of the road.

And, like I talked about in this post, Victor and El's arrests are paralleled- and who was El later taken by as a result of being arrested? THE LAB!!!

And also, like I talked about in this post, Victor's flashback scenes have multiple direct NINA paralells- which would make sense if the lab was messing with Victor's memories the same way they messed with El's memories via NINA.

So, there's substantial evidence to support the idea that Victor's memories aren't reliable, and likely have been intentionally scrambled/messed with.

SECTION 2: Back To Alice

So, circling back to Alice, let's go through why I think that this little blonde girl:

Is NOT Alice Creel. And later on, I'm also going to tie this to why Alice Creel is missing from The First Shadow. You might be thinking “oh, Em, you’re so neck deep in insane theories that you forgot to actually look at the show! They call that little blonde girl “Alice” TWICE! You fool! You buffoon! I banish thee to The Beyond for One Trillion Years for your ignorance and tomfoolery!” However, as indicated by my lovingly labelled screenshots of those exact scenes, I did NOT forget, and thankfully, do not need to be banished to The Beyond:

And interestingly enough, even though in those two versions of the Creels' moving-in-day scene have Alice being referred to by name, there is one version that doesn't- the Creel Family Trailer:

And what's especially interesting abou those two versions of that scene where "Alice" is referred to by name is that they're both intentionally set up as being unreliable. They CHOSE to a.) have Victor seemignly be missing chunks of his memory (for example, he completely leaves out things like the exorcism at the Creel house and a ton of other details that are present in the papers)/be unreliable due to very, very likely having had his brain/messed with by the lab and they also chose to b.) have Nancy be in Vecna's memories, which, again, unreliable due to the HUGE chance of the lab fucking with them. Hell, in his monologue, 001 doesn't even give us the name of his mother or his sister- he seems to forget his sister even existed until the end of his monologue, and even THEN, he still doesn't give us her name! And he also directly contradicts himself when talking about how it was "planned" vs having JUST talked about how it was spur of the moment earlier, like I talked about in this post. He's not reliable, and neither is Victor. They could've just given us a scene of that girl being called "Alice" that wasn't through the memories of somebody unreliable who's very very likely had their brain messed with in a million different ways by the lab. But they didn't. The Creel Family Trailer is the only version that isn't set up as being somebody's memories- and especially not the memories of someone who's been messed with by the lab, and it's also the only version where "Alice's" name isn't used/the only version where that little blonde, blue-eyed girl isn't referred to as Alice. Is it not a little suspicious that the most reliable version of these events (the Creel family trailer) is also the version where, conveniently, that girl isn't referred to as Alice?

And I wondered, initially, if this was to conceal Alice's identity/name in the trailer. However, when I dug into it, that doesn't make any sense for these key reasons. 1.) Alice's name had already been revealed in the Netflix Tudum Creel Newspaper trailer. Alice's name was not a secret when the Creel Family Trailer came out. Why conceal her name AFTER having shown it right on-screen? 2.) The name isnt the only change in these scenes. I've talked about this before, but the trailer has quite a few differences from the scenes in the show, especially with the scene of Alice finding the dead rabbit being COMPLETELY different. But focusing on that "coming in the door," scene SPECIFICALLY, there's multiple differences. The light fixture is missing in the trailer:

But it's there in both the Dear Billly Creel sequence and the Massacre at HNL sequence:

"Henry" zooms into the house and runs up the stairs immediately instead of standing there all sad:

"Henry" runs in FIRST, before "Alice", whereas in the show, "Alice" gets into the house before "Henry":

"Virginia's" line is rewritten- if they simply wanted to conceal Alice's identity, it would have been VERY easy to take the in-show scene, put it in the trailer, and edit Virginia's dialogue to just say "No running," instead of "Alice, no running". But instead, they rewrote the line to say "children, no running":

So, if this was just a case of concealing Alice's identity/name (a name they'd already revealed, no less), why change SO many core parts of the scene (such as "Henry" zooming inside instead of standing at the door), and why rewrite "Virginia's" line? Why not just literally remove the word "Alice" from her line? LIke, it would have been a million times easier. I could do a quick job of it in capcut on my phone! It would take SUCH a small amount of time for them to do compared to all of the weird changes they made for the trailer & instead of recording a whole new line of dialogue for "Virginia".

And speaking of "Virginia," I mentioned this earlier, but I don't think that's Virginia Creel at all. I think that's Mother Alice Creel, from the Edward timeline. Let's look at the papers- specifically, the Weekly Watcher. The Weekly Watcher says that Alice Creel is 15 years old:

But this girl, clearly, is not 15:

And Virginia Creel's daughter, Alice Creel, should be 15 years old. But if that little blue-eyed girl is not 15, then she's not Virginia Creel's daughter. Which makes sense if she's Alice Creel's daughter, Daughter Virginia, and if the brown-eyed mother in those scenes is actually Mother Alice Creel. Like, setting aside production error allegations because I'm not dealing with those anymore, how can "this little girl who is Not 15 is Alice Creel" and "Alice Creel is 15" coexist? Frankly, I actually think there's more evidence to support the fact that the memories/scenes of that little girl being called "Alice," are unreliable than there is to debunk the newspaper saying that Alice was 15.

Why Is Alice Creel Missing From TFS?

If Karen Childress is NOT a Creel in the henry timeline/in TFS, but has blue eyes and is NOT the karen wheeler that we see in the show, as that karen has brown eyes/does NOT go on to become That Karen Wheeler Who Is Mike Wheeler's Mother

And if Daughter Virginia Creel is the blue-eyed little girl that we see in the show, and who Might be karen childress in some way.

And if Daughter Alice Creel is a.) supposed to be 15 in 1959 and b.) mysteriously missing from TFS but is also the brown-eyed Karen Wheeler that we see in the show.

Then, it might explain why Alice is missing in The First Shadow- we're seeing the backstory for another Karen Wheeler/Karen Childress ( whose actress has blue eyes and is likely NOT the Karen we see in the show), and we're also missing an Alice who later goes on to BECOME Brown Eyed Karen- which, Karen Childress and Alice Creel being together in the same timeline causes issues because if Alice Creel actually has brown eyes and goes on to become Karen Wheeler, then WHY THE HELL is she in the same timeline as the other Karen/the blue-eyed Karen??

That would be TWO KARENS IN THE SAME TIMELINE, which might explain why Alice Creel isnt there/might be tied to it. I don't know fully how it works, yet, but we don't really know the ramifications of the same person from two different timelines ending up in the same timeline together. So, if Karen Childress/Blue Eyed Karen somehow got into Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen's timeline, then there's a chance that Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Crel was removed from her original timeline, and is therefore now absent from TFS- she's likely still alive, as we see Brown Eyed Karen in the show, but that would still work completely if she simply ended up in another timeline/if Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel vanished from the Henry Timeline because Blue Eyed Karen/Karen Childress ended up in that timeline instead. And bringing up Fringe AGAIN, in Fringe, when one person or item is taken to another timeline, something of an equivalent mass must be swapped to the other timeline (like the Indiana Jones sandbag thing- with exceptions to this rule being limited to people with Specific Powers, such as Main Timeline Olivia), and this DOES include people. So, if Karen Childress/Blue Eyed Karen was chilld in a timeline that isn't the TFS timeline, and suddenly got pulled into the TFS timeline, and if Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel was the same mass (which makeas sense if they're timeline counterparts of eachother) as her, Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel would be pulled into the non-TFS timeline at the same time as when Blue Eyed Karen was pulled into the TFS timeline. Hell, there doesn't even have to be a reason for this happening/it doesn't even have to be the lab planning it! Because in Fringe, things end up pulled into another timeline/swapped simply because of the bridge/dam/veil/wall between timelines getting thinner and the swap happening accidentally. If the blue-eyed Karen Childress is NOT a Creel, and was born outside of the Creel family and coexisted alongside Daughter Virginia in the same timeline originally (before getting yoinked to another timeline), then we have three girls (as mentioned earlier)- Karen Childress, Daughter Alice Creel, and Daughter Virgniia Creel

And if Karen Childress was from Timeline A (Edward Timeline) And if Daughter Alice Creel was from Timeline B (Henry Timeline/TFS Timeline) And if Daughter Virginia Creel is also from Timeline A (Edward Timeline) And if Karen Childress got pulled into Timeline B (Henry Timeline), and Daughter Alice Creel got pulled into Timeline A (Edward Timeline), that would mean that Daughter Alice Creel and Daughter Virginia Creel are co-existing in the same timeline (The Edward Timeline). Which would explain why Brown Eyed Karen/the Karen we know in the show is just chilling and living her life I'll come back to this later, but Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel may very well have simply adopted the life of Karen Childress in the Edward Timeline, while Alice Creel stayed missing in the Henry Timeline/Karen Childress was present instead, but Karen Childress chose to keep using her original name, whereas Alice/Brown Eyed Karen adopted the name and life of Karen Childress in the other timeline.

After all, Daugher Alice Creel doesn't exist in the Edward Timeline, and because Daughter Virginia Creel would've still been present in the Edward Timeline, Daughter Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen couldn't simply pick up her life, and instead, resumed the life of Karen Childress. And it's hard to figure out what Karen Childress may have done in her new timeline/if she had a family/if her parents were present in this timeline or WHAT, but a lot of this section is just Me Speculating And Trying To Figure Things Out.

However, things also get tricky here, because if Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen never returned to her original timeline, then why does the Weekly Watcher report on her death? However, even witih all my theorizing aside, this is an issue that remains even simply with the fact that Alice doesn't seem to be present in TFS- so if she's not around for the murders, how did she die/why are papers reporting about her death? I think there's room there for lab fuckery faking things/covering things up etc etc, but it's still something to chew on.

(and there's ALSO the chance of more than 2 timelines which throws a whole NEW wrench into things)

And you might also be wondering "well, though, how is Daugher Alice Creel Karen Childress' timeline counterpart? Shouldn't Daughter Virginia Creel be Daughter Alice's timeline counterpart? To which I say: no! Not necessariily. There's a LOT of weirdness here, but it's worth noting that ST has chosen a very interesting way to go about the timeline counterpart business, because there's quite a bit of variation. For example, Victor Creel's name stays the same in both the Henry timeline and the Edward timeline AND his position in the family stays the same (the father/husband), but he's younger by 5 years in the Edward timeline compared to the Henry timeline. Edward and Henry's position in the family (son/brother) stays the same, but his name changes to something entirely new, and we don't know Edward's age, so we don't know if that changes. Virginia Creel and Alice Creel are where things get REALLY messy, because they swap names and positions in the family depending on the timeline. Instead of just keeping the same name and position the way that Victor does, OR getting a totally brand new, not used in the family before name but keeping the same position in the family the way that Henry and Edward do, Virginia and Alice instead, swap names and positions in the family with eachother. Virginia Creel is Victor's wife and Henry and Alice's mother in the Henry timeline. However, Virginia Creel is Victor's daughter and Edward's sister and Alice's daughter in the Edward timeline. Alice Creel is Victor's daughter and Henry's sister in the Henry Timeline. However, Alice Creel is Victor's wife and Edward and Virginia's mother in the Edward timeline. And also, in Fringe, timeline counterparts are often messy too/not exactly equal/not always born at the same time- for example Henry Bishop was born and didn't have a timeline counterpart at ALL because there's only one version of his father (Peter Bishop), as the other timeline Peter died as a child. But then Henry Bishop is later erased from the timeline and Peter has a child named Henrietta (born in the opposite timeline from Henry/is Olivia's daughter born in the main timeline rather than Henry who was Fauxlivia's son born in the alternate timeline), but again, because there is only ONE Peter, he fathered both of them and then Henry ceased to exist, and it's all complicated etc.

So, point is, timeline counterpart stuff is not cut and dry or particularly simple or easy here. Which means that there's absolutely stilll room for a.) certain people not HAVING co-existing timeline counterparts the way that Henry and Henrietta don't actually have one because in order for Henrietta to exist, Henry can't exist, and vice versa because there's only one Peter and b.) timeline counterparts just generally being weird/ Karen Childress being Alice Creel's timeline counterpart.

The idea of Brown Eyed Karen/Alice Creel swapping timeline with Karen Childress/wondering why Karen Childress and Alice Creel were timeline counterparts/got swapped instead of Daughter Virginia and Daugher Alice would also tie into Daugher Alice Creel being listed as 15 years old in 1959 in the Weekly Watcher- if Alice Creel was 15 years old but Daugher Virginia (the blonde little girl we see in the show that we think is Alice) is CLEARLY not 15, they're not going to have equal mass- but Karen Childress, could totally be 15, hence why those two would be more likely to swap that Daughter Virginia and Daughter Alice, as Daughter Virginia and Daughter Alice seem to be two different ages/that little blonde girl is not 15, but Karen Childress and Daugher Alice/Bornw Eyed Karen could definitely have both been 15 and therefore far closer to being the same mass.

And also, if Alice Creel/Brown Eyed Karen simply adopted the name and life of Karen Childress after their timelines got swapped (and possibly even gained Karen's memories over time, which as mentioned before, happens in Fringe), then Brown Eyed Karen Wheeler may very well, at this point, believe herself to have always been Karen Childress. As mentioned before, somebody believing themselves to be their alternate timeline counterpart after swapping timelines HAS happened in Fringe. This may also be why Ted and Karen's relationship is so unhappy- Brown Eyed Karen isn't the Karen that Ted originally knew. And this Ted isn't the Ted that Brown Eyed Karen originally knew. And Ted might know deep down that something isn't right (again, this happens in Fringe with people whose loved ones get timeline swapped. Sometimes they notice, sometimes they dont, sometimes they say something about it, sometimes they don't.) Anyway! Lots to think about.

SECTION 3: THE CONNIE PROBLEM

So, this all also leaves us with the question of Connie, though. Why does she have so much Alice Creel coding? Like, the name alice plays on screen twice with her & her body's posed the same way as alice's dead body.

However, I made that post about how TFS blue eyed Virginia resembles Connie. And we don't know what happens to that blue eyed virginia, we only saw a brown eyed "virginia" die. And that blonde little girl with blue eyes is presented to us as being alice creel, but a.) alice creel should be 15 and b.) the whole thing w her name being removed from the trailer.

And so im like. Connie. Are you blue-eyed TFS virginia a few years down the line? Which would be weird if that tfs mother is virginia and not alice, but there's so much name swap fuckery that the association with the name alice could still fit somehow/I just need to dig more. Anyway, things are making me insane as usual.

SECTION 4: CONCLUSION

My conclusion summed up?

And before you come into my inbox calling me insane, please know that a.) I know and I'm having fun and b.) lots of this is speculation. There's parts with firmer evidence, and there's parts with less firm evidence/parts where I'm just trying to fill in the gaps. My main point is that it doesn't make any damn sense for that little blonde girl to be Alice Creel if Alice Creel is supposed to be 15, and ALSO that there's plausible evidence (such as the trailer removing her name) that she isn't Alice Creel, and that her not being Alice Creel may explain why Alice Creel is missing from TFS. This post is less evidence-focused than most of my posts because a.) so much is still up in the air with TFS and b.) I am very very tired today LMAO, but there's still some solid chunks of evidence in here that I think are worth considering.

[aemiron-main]

linda hamilton. are you connie frazier/mother alice? yes or no.

[aemiron-main]

cant stop staring at connie’s little hair flip vs 001’s little hairflip… and the fact that Connie is very likely Mother-Alice/Edward’s mother….

[aemiron-main]

staring at linda hamilton being cast for st4…. Is Connie Frazier/Mother Alice coming back????????

[henrysglock]

henry’s season 5 costume is looking especially 1997 lolita humbert humbert to me

I actually completely disagree with this take. Brenner is the one constantly serving Humbert Humbert.

Even Brenner's brown suit is giving Humbert Humbert more than Henry's does:

Humbert Humbert doesn't seem to deal in bold ties, same as Brenner, but unlike Henry.

Henry's outfit is a direct callback to Mike and his red tie/brown jacket, as well as a White Rabbit reference re: Alice in Wonderland.

(see also: Nell being dressed similarly to Alice in Wonderland, Jane having a room with an Alice in Wonderland themed room, and the vintage 1950-1960 Alice in Wonderland paint by number that the production team leaked. It's a Creeler thing.)

So...yeah. I'm going to have to disagree.

[henrysglock]

love to see people finally talking about alice in wonderland re: the creelers. the vindication for 2022-2023 me goes hard.

[aemiron-main]

hello hello. haven’t read all your analyses so idk what’s up but i saw the mike/victor post and i was wondering if you had a diagram/tree of how these characters tie together and are related

HELLOOOOO!!! YES!!! I made a little family tree diagram down below! However, first, this family tree requires some important context:

1.) “Mother Alice”/Alice being Victor’s wife instead of his daughter in the Edward timeline is straight up written in the Indianapolis Gazette, so this isn’t just me guessing, they’ve given it to us outright.

“authorities found the remains of Alice, Edward, and Virginia Creel- Victor Creel’s wife, son, and daughter.”

2.) The same goes for “Daughter Virginia”. Virginia is Victor’s daughter in the Edward timeline/is Edward’s sister, and again, they straight up give us this in the Indianapolis Gazette

“The mangled and eyeless bodies of the two young children- Virginia and Edward- laid deflated and bent on the floor of the foyer”

3.) Victor is always the father in both timelines, for some reason, although his age changes based on the timeline.

With that said, here’s the family tree:

Daughter Alice and Mother Alice seem to be the same person in different timelines with different roles in each timeline, and the same goes for Daughter Virginia and Mother Virginia.

This also makes Mike and El blood cousins in one timeline.

And just for the sake of putting it all in one place, here’s a link to my list of posts about The Creelers.

And here’s some of the key posts that are most relevant to the diagram:

Original Karen is Victor’s Daughter, Virginia, Not his Wife, Virginia/Karen is Edward’s Sister Post and Connie Being Mother Alice (x)

Original Connie Frazier is Alice Creel Post (x)

Karen and Virginia Costuming Parallels: Theyre The Same Person, Different Timelines (x)

Let me know if you have any questions!

[aemiron-main]

The Creels and Wheelers Being Related/The Creelers

Creeler Family Tree Diagram (x)

Karen Wheeler- Is She Virginia Creel From The Edward Timeline?

Original Karen is Victor’s Daughter, Virginia, Not his Wife, Virginia/Karen is Edward’s Sister Post and Connie Being Mother Alice (x)

Karen and Virginia Costuming Parallels: Theyre The Same Person, Different Timelines (x)

Karen’s Blue S1 Coat Dress vs Virginia’s Blue Moving-In Dress (x)

Karen and Virginia and Meatloaf (x)

Yet Another Karen-Virginia Parallel: Wheeler Kitchen Curtains vs Virginia’s Shirt and Virginia and Karen’s Hair (x)

“Alice? Was This Your Daughter?” (x)

The First Shadow, Timelines, Alice Creel, and Swapping Family Members/The Victor Swap: New Thoughts On Alice Creel vs Karen Wheeler Regarding the Edward Timeline- Karen Wheeler Might Be Alice, Just Not In The Way Anyone (Including Me) Thought She Was (x)

I Just Died In Your Arms Tonight: Literally! Kind of! Fake Died! (x)

Connie Frazier- Is She Alice Creel From The Edward Timeline?

Original Connie Frazier is Alice Creel Post (x)

Connie’s Hair vs 001’s Hair (x)

What The Hell Is On Connie’s Brooch? (x)

Mike and El are Cousins/Victor is Nancy and El and Holly and Mike’s Grandfather

Reblog of James’ Post Regarding Edward Being El’s Father (x) 

Your Granddad’s Time In The War- Victor as Nancy’s Granddad (x)

I Could Sense It: Victor and Mike and “Sensing” Things and Victor as Mike’s Granddad (x)

Michael Myers, Victor Creel, Sensing Things, and Michael Creeler (x)

The Resemblance Between Mike and Victor (x)

The Way These Shots Immediately Go From Henward to Nancy (x)

El Is Totally A Creel And So Is Mike: Dustin Wearing The “Explorer” Shirt (x)

Will and El as Twins in One Timeline and Not Twins in Another & El Being A Creel In One Timeline But Not In The Other (x)

The Creelers and Mike’s Blue Sweater and Clasped Hands vs Henward’s Blue Sweater and Clasped Hands (x)

Nancy vs This One (x)

Edward Timeline Victor 

Is Sam Owens Edward’s Father/Victor Creel From Another Timeline? (x)

[aemiron-main]

who do u think nell is, if not holly

HELLLOOO, ANON!! :DD

So, the simplest answer is that I’m not definitely sure who Nell is, and that I’m certainly not convinced that she’s Definitely Holly. Sure, there’s totally a chance she could be Holly but the ages don’t line up.

I also think she could be Jane (which, James has talked about on his page re: the difference between El vs Jane).

And I ALSO think she could be Daughter Virginia (who is likely Karen Wheeler) OR a younger version of Mother Alice.

But wait, who are Daughter Virginia and Mother Alice?

Well, I’m guessing you’re the anon from this post that James tagged me in, so I’m going to quickly explain the Daughter Virginia and Mother Alice stuff to you (which, you can also find more posts about it in my Creeler section & Edward section of my pinned post).

So, basically, in S4, we get closeups of two newspapers about the Creel murders- the Weekly Watcher and the Indianapolis Gazette.

The Weekly Watcher talks about Henry Creel, his father, Victor, his sister, Alice, and his mother, Virginia.

However, the Indianapolis Gazette talks about Edward Creel instead of Henry, and while Victor is still Edward’s father, Edward’s mother and sister are swapped compared to Henry- Alice Creel is listed as being Edward’s mother (aka “Mother Alice”) and Virginia Creel is listed as being Edward’s sister (aka Sister Virginia).

In one timeline, Alice Creel is Victor Creel’s daughter- in another timeline, she’s his wife, and vice versa for Virginia Creel.

So, how does this connect to Nell and to the Wheelers?

Well, like I said earlier, Nell might be either a.) Daughter Virginia from the Edward timeline or b.) a younger version of Mother Alice, as as far as we know, on the surface, we’ve only seen Daughter Alice and Mother Virginia in the show- we don’t actually know for sure what Daughter Virginia or a young Mother Alice would look like.

And what about the Wheelers? Well, there’s a chance that Karen Wheeler is Daughter Virginia, explaining all of Karen’s connections to the Creels and specifically her connections/parallels to Virginia Creel despite obviously not being the Mother Virginia that we see in-show. She’s not Henry’s mom, Virginia, instead, she’s likely Edward’s sister, Virginia.

I hope this helps explains things a bit, anon- I didnt include many specific examples/pieces of evidence in this response because theyre all in my pinned post sections & I just wanted to answer this quickly, but that’s how there’s these two other possible Creel girls for Nell to be, without technically introducing a “new” character because Daughter Virginia and Mother Alice a.) have already been mentioned in the Indianapolis Gazette and b.) seem to likely be alternate timeline versions/Twinners of existing characters.

So, to come back to your question, who do I think Nell is playing? I’m not entirely sure, but these are my options (in no particular order):

-An older version of Holly (involving more timeskip/time weirdness, hence the age discrepancy)

-Jane

-Daughter Virginia (she would also likely require timeskip/age weirdness, as the girl seems to be dressed in 80s clothes versus Daughter Virginia being a child in the 50s, just like Edward, although we never get firm ages for Edward or Daughter Virginia, but then there’s also all of the late 70s anachronisms in TFS (see: this post, this post, and this post) that could be playing into this/there’s a set precedent in TFS re: stuff that’s supposedly happening in the 50s but has references to stuff that didnt exist until the late 70s & also clothes that are closer to 70s and 80s clothes than 50s clothes)

-Younger Mother Alice (this one would also involve age/time weirdness, as Mother Alice was an adult with her own children in the 1950s, so if we were seeing her, we would be seeing Edward’s mother when SHE was a child, before Edward was born)

Again, I hope that helps explain things, anon!!

[aemiron-main]

YESSSSSS THANK YOU JAMES, OKAY SO!!! @strangerwheelerthings

The Wheelers are likely Creels through something called the Edward Timeline, which you can find an explanation of here.

Basically, there’s at least two timelines given to us in the show via the Indianapolis Gazette article, and in one of them, there’s Edward Creel instead of Henry Creel, and in that timeline, Virginia Creel is Edward’s sister, not his mother, and Alice Creel is Edward’s mother. Victor seemingly stays the same (except his age changes), and so, in the Edward timeline, Alice is Victor’s wife, not his daughter, and Virginia is Victor’s daughter, not his wife.

And I think that Edward’s sister, Virginia Creel, is Karen Wheeler, which, you can read more about in these posts:

Original Karen is Victor’s Daughter, Virginia, Not his Wife, Virginia/Karen is Edward’s Sister Post (x)

Karen and Virginia Costuming Parallels: Theyre The Same Person, Different Timelines (x)

Karen’s Blue S1 Coat Dress vs Virginia’s Blue Moving-In Dress (x)

Karen and Virginia and Meatloaf (x)

Yet Another Karen-Virginia Parallel: Wheeler Kitchen Curtains vs Virginia’s Shirt and Virginia and Karen’s Hair (x)

“Alice? Was This Your Daughter?” (x)

And that Edward’s mother, Alice Creel, is Connie Frazier, which you can find the initial “Connie Frazier is Alice Creel” post here.

And, like James’ posts talk about, El is likely a Creel- but she’s likely Edward’s daughter, not Henry’s daughter.

Which means, that if Karen is Daughter Virginia/Sister Virginia/Edward’s sister, then Edward is Mike’s uncle- which, if Edward is El’s father, then that would make Mike and El blood cousins in one timeline.

And here’s a list if some of my other posts regarding the Wheelers being related to the Creels:

Reblog of James’ Post Regarding Edward Being El’s Father (x)

Your Granddad’s Time In The War- Victor as Nancy’s Granddad (x)

I Could Sense It: Victor and Mike and “Sensing” Things and Victor as Mike’s Granddad (x)

Michael Myers, Victor Creel, Sensing Things, and Michael Creeler (x)

The Resemblance Between Mike and Victor (x)

Long story short- Mike and El are likely blood cousins in one timeline, with Edward being El’s father in one timeline, and Mike being Edward’s nephew, and the “Alice Creel is Karen Wheeler” theory wasnt fully wrong but also not fully correct because she’s actually likely Daughter Virginia from the Edward timeline.

"there might be some wheeler-creel parallels"

well they're likely related, so...

[aemiron-main-backup]

//POST BACKUP//

alice creel isn’t karen wheeler- but she might be somebody else: an analysis of alice creel and connie frazier and jefferson airplane’s white rabbit

So, I think there’s a solid chance that “Connie Frazier,” might be Alice Creel.

Alice was 15 in 1959, and therefore was born in 1944, which would make her 39 in 1983.

Connie’s age isn’t confirmed anywhere, unfortunately, but the actress who plays her, Catherine Dyer, was 58 as of 2016, when S1 was filmed. Admittedly, this is a fairly large gap between what Alice’s age should be vs what Catherine Dyer’s age is, however, Mike Wheeler is also supposed to be fourteen, so I think that the ages of the actors vs the characters in ST has a bit of wiggle room.

I’m not just basing this off of looks, though- the name “Alice,” literally plays in a scene where Connie’s face is on screen/it’s focused on Connie.

The lyric “go ask Alice,” plays during this scene, and even cuts to Connie RIGHT as the name “Alice,” is sung, having focused on Benny for the “go ask,” part of the line.

(BECAUSE THIS IS A BACKUP OF THE POST, I CAN'T ADD THE VIDEO FROM THE OG POST BUT YOU CAN GO AND WATCH THE SCENE FOR YOURSELF IN S1 AND LISTEN FOR IT DURING THE SCENE W THE SCREENSHOT BELOW)

And prior to this scene at the door, we also have the “call Alice,” lyric that plays, which, right as it plays Benny says “Whoever it is, I’ll tell them to go away real quick.” The fact that the name “Alice,” plays right after Benny talks about going to see who is at the door is suspicious, almost like it’s Alice at the door.

As well, the full line for the “call alice,” part goes “call alice- when she was just small.” And Alice Creel was small/15 years old the first/last time we saw her (1959) but now is not small anymore/is grown up.

That’s two instances of Connie being referred to while the name “Alice,” plays in the show. The first time, it literally cuts to Connie’s face as the name “Alice,” is sung, and the second time, Benny talks about seeing who is at the door (Connie) while we hear Connie knocking and the name “Alice,” is sung once again.

It’s also interesting that Benny literally called Connie/called social services and Connie/the lab seem to have been listening in on the call and interfered. And if Connie is Alice, then Benny literally called Alice.

Also, it almost seems like Connie’s has her mind wiped- she’s extremely focused on her mission, seems to have little personality or interests outside of it, and kills Benny in cold blood with basically zero hesitation.

And look at how Connie lays on the ground, bleeding from her eyes, compared to how Alice laid on the ground, supposedly bleeding from her eyes.

It’s also interesting to me that they chose to revisit Connie’s death in S4, the same season where we’re introduced to Alice Creel for the first time. Sullivan hands Owens a picture of Connie’s death when talking about El- almost like ST production is giving us a subtle reminder of what Connie’s death looked like and how eerily similar it was to Alice’s “death.”

I’m not 100% sure if Connie is Alice yet, but the parallels are definitely interesting, and if Brenner picked up Henry from the Creel house that night (which he did), then I don’t think it’s a stretch for him to have grabbed Alice too. What if Henry is part of what happens when MKultra brainwashing fails, but Connie/Alice is what happens when it succeeds? Not the powers part of it persay but simply the *brainwashing* part and destruction and rebuilding of the mind that was involved in the real mkultra. (The two main steps for mind control were thought to be to wipe then mind snd then rebuild it, which likely would’ve been what happened to Alice). And even though Alice seems dead at the Creel house, there’s so much weirdness with all of those scenes and the position of her body changes throughout various retellings and she seems like her eyes may not even be bleeding in some of them- she may also have regenerative healing like Henry (and likely like Virginia) which would explain her survival.

And then we also get this scene- look at the curtains. We have the orange curtain behind Connie and the orange curtain behind Virginia, and we have both Connie and Virginia wearing orange plaid and they both have similar hairstyles, and the blanket behind Connie is the same sort of orange and white colours as Virginia’s shirt and the framing with the OTS shot of Victor in Virginia’s screenshot vs the OTS shot of Scott in Connie’s screenshot- if Connie is Alice, then it would make sense to parallel grown-up Alice to her mother (Virginia).

It’s also interesting to me that they chose scott for this scene- scott, who would’ve been at school at the same time as Henry and likely would’ve met Alice at some point, but wouldn’t recognize her anymore, especially because she’s supposed to be dead.

alice creel isn’t karen wheeler- but she might be somebody else: an analysis of alice creel and connie frazier and jefferson airplane’s white rabbit

So, I think there’s a solid chance that “Connie Frazier,” might be Alice Creel.

Alice was 15 in 1959, and therefore was born in 1944, which would make her 39 in 1983.

Connie’s age isn’t confirmed anywhere, unfortunately, but the actress who plays her, Catherine Dyer, was 58 as of 2016, when S1 was filmed. Admittedly, this is a fairly large gap between what Alice’s age should be vs what Catherine Dyer’s age is, however, Mike Wheeler is also supposed to be fourteen, so I think that the ages of the actors vs the characters in ST has a bit of wiggle room.

I’m not just basing this off of looks, though- the name “Alice,” literally plays in a scene where Connie’s face is on screen/it’s focused on Connie.

The lyric “go ask Alice,” plays during this scene, and even cuts to Connie RIGHT as the name “Alice,” is sung, having focused on Benny for the “go ask,” part of the line.

And prior to this scene at the door, we also have the “call Alice,” lyric that plays, which, right as it plays Benny says “Whoever it is, I’ll tell them to go away real quick.” The fact that the name “Alice,” plays right after Benny talks about going to see who is at the door is suspicious, almost like it’s Alice at the door.

As well, the full line for the “call alice,” part goes “call alice- when she was just small.” And Alice Creel was small/15 years old the first/last time we saw her (1959) but now is not small anymore/is grown up.

That’s two instances of Connie being referred to while the name “Alice,” plays in the show. The first time, it literally cuts to Connie’s face as the name “Alice,” is sung, and the second time, Benny talks about seeing who is at the door (Connie) while we hear Connie knocking and the name “Alice,” is sung once again.

It’s also interesting that Benny literally called Connie/called social services and Connie/the lab seem to have been listening in on the call and interfered. And if Connie is Alice, then Benny literally called Alice.

Also, it almost seems like Connie’s has her mind wiped- she’s extremely focused on her mission, seems to have little personality or interests outside of it, and kills Benny in cold blood with basically zero hesitation.

And look at how Connie lays on the ground, bleeding from her eyes, compared to how Alice laid on the ground, supposedly bleeding from her eyes.

It’s also interesting to me that they chose to revisit Connie’s death in S4, the same season where we’re introduced to Alice Creel for the first time. Sullivan hands Owens a picture of Connie’s death when talking about El- almost like ST production is giving us a subtle reminder of what Connie’s death looked like and how eerily similar it was to Alice’s “death.”

I’m not 100% sure if Connie is Alice yet, but the parallels are definitely interesting, and if Brenner picked up Henry from the Creel house that night (which he did), then I don’t think it’s a stretch for him to have grabbed Alice too. What if Henry is part of what happens when MKultra brainwashing fails, but Connie/Alice is what happens when it succeeds? Not the powers part of it persay but simply the *brainwashing* part and destruction and rebuilding of the mind that was involved in the real mkultra. (The two main steps for mind control were thought to be to wipe then mind snd then rebuild it, which likely would’ve been what happened to Alice). And even though Alice seems dead at the Creel house, there’s so much weirdness with all of those scenes and the position of her body changes throughout various retellings and she seems like her eyes may not even be bleeding in some of them- she may also have regenerative healing like Henry (and likely like Virginia) which would explain her survival.

And then we also get this scene- look at the curtains. We have the orange curtain behind Connie and the orange curtain behind Virginia, and we have both Connie and Virginia wearing orange plaid and they both have similar hairstyles, and the blanket behind Connie is the same sort of orange and white colours as Virginia’s shirt and the framing with the OTS shot of Victor in Virginia’s screenshot vs the OTS shot of Scott in Connie’s screenshot- if Connie is Alice, then it would make sense to parallel grown-up Alice to her mother (Virginia).

It’s also interesting to me that they chose scott for this scene- scott, who would’ve been at school at the same time as Henry and likely would’ve met Alice at some point, but wouldn’t recognize her anymore, especially because she’s supposed to be dead.

[aemiron-main-backup]

cant stop staring at connie’s little hair flip vs 001’s little hairflip… and the fact that Connie is very likely Mother-Alice/Edward’s mother….

cant stop staring at connie’s little hair flip vs 001’s little hairflip… and the fact that Connie is very likely Mother-Alice/Edward’s mother….